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SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 06:19
Thermobaric Foes: Explosive Threat

Thermobaric warheads put the power to demolish buildings into the hands of the average U.S. marine. But Americans aren’t the only ones with the weapons. The Chinese, the Russians -- even guerilla groups -- now have thermobarics' shockingly destructive power in their grasps.

Thermobarics aren't just a more powerful version of normal high explosive. The term encompasses a range of different types of warhead from fuel-air explosives, which release a cloud of flammable material and detonate it, to metallized explosives whose expanding fireball takes in oxygen from the air. What they have in common is that they produce blast which has a lower overpressure but a longer duration than normal condensed explosives. In effect it is a shove rather than a punch: a thermobaric explosion does not smash a hole in a wall, it pushes the wall over. An instantaneous explosive overpressure of 50 psi [pounds per square inch] is needed to kill. But one sustained for a fraction of a second at 10 psi is also lethal. That’s how thermobarics kill.

The basic idea goes way back, and anyone interested in the background - including a bizarre German WWII weapon, how a 500lb of coal dust can break windows five miles away and what new ultra-fine nanoexplosives can do - should put my book Weapons Grade on their Christmas list.

But the thermobaric threat isn’t confined to history books. In Iraq and Afghanistan, many US lives have been saved by the protection afforded by armored patrol vehicles, body armor and prompt medical attention. Thermobarics may change that. Armored vehicles are safe only when buttoned up, as the blast from a thermobaric warhead will 'flow' through hatches or other openings.

A detailed analysis points out that "conventional countermeasures such as barriers (sandbags) and personnel amour are not effective against thermobaric weaponry."

Other research indicates that current ballistic body armor actually increases the severity of blast injuries. Similarly, current combat medicine is not geared to deal with the damage to lungs and intestines which are typical of thermobarics - "diagnosis and treatment of blast injuries may require computed tomography, which might not be readily available in the battlefield."

In 1988, the Russians were the first to field a shoulder-launched thermobaric weapon, the RPO-A. It is also known as Shmel or Schmel from the Russian for Bumblebee.

As with the Marines thermobaric SMAW-NE weapon, the Shmel is quite capable of destroying buildings as this video shows. The Shmel complemented a wide range of other thermobaric weapons including bombs, rockets and artillery in the Russian arsenal. Controversially, security forces used the Shmel in the school siege at Beslan, a questionable choice for a hostage situation.

New Russian developments include a compact multi-shot thermobaric grenade launcher for urban combat and a thermobaric warhead for the RPG-7 used by guerrilla forces worldwide. Similar products are offered for export by the Bulgarians and other Eastern European nations.

Rumors of a Chinese licensed copy of the Shmel appear to be confirmed with the emergence of this clone - it has the same calibre, same appearance and described as "fuel air blasting explosive". Its effectiveness against buildings, bunkers is noted, as well as the fact that because the blast takes oxygen from the air, "personnel in the airtight space suffocates because of the oxygen deficit."

Are such weapons in the hands of insurgents and terrorists? During the Chechen conflict, there were persistent stories that Chechen separatists had them:

"The Russian force, to explain extensive damage to buildings in Grozny, stated that the Chechens had captured a boxcar full of Shmel weapons and were now using them indiscriminately," one report noted. Newspapers reported that the weapons were recovered from Chechen arms caches

However, according to Tourpal-Ali Kaimov, a Chechen commander interviewed by the USMC only a handful of Shmel were captured.

The Russian claim that the Chechens captured a 'box car' load of these weapons was part of a Russian disinformation campaign. The indiscriminate use of these weapons combined with its destructive capabilities produced a lot of collateral damage and deaths/injuries among non-combatants. The Russian claim was a ruse in order to place at least part of the blame on Chechen use of the Schmel.

There is at least one documented instance of an irregular force receiving Shmel: the Cobra militia in the Republic of Congo reported in 2003.

Among these shipments were significant quantities of the RPO-A 'Shmel', an extremely lethal hand-held launcher whose projectile uses fuel-air explosive... This is the first time this weapon has been seen in the possession of a non-state actor.

The report, by the Swiss-based Small Arms Survey group, does not identify the source of the weapon, but does provides photographic evidence.

So far, insurgents in Iraq haven’t gotten their hands on thermobaric weapons. And reports from Afghanistan describing thermobaric victims as being found dead without a mark on them have been overstated -- and allegations about 'displaced eyeballs' -- are highly doubtful. But it would seem only a matter of time until these weapons make them into the world’s most intense conflicts.

Some attention has been paid to the threat posed by thermobarics, but little has been made public. In a series of computer simulations called Project Albert, the Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory has evaluated the effect of arming platoons of attackers and defenders with enhanced blast weapons in urban assault. The results are significant - when the attackers alone are armed with them, they are much more successful, but when both sides have them the advantage shifts towards the defenders.

This may be important for the future of warfare in cities. The spread of these weapons will make such actions more destructive, and it will make infantry assault even more costly in terms of lives.

Agreement on an international ban on the manufacture and export of such weapons might have been possible some years ago, but now the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. Now it is a matter of preparing ourselves with better tactical awareness of what such weapons can do, and improving the medical facilities for dealing with thermobaric casualties.
I FOUND THIS AT www.defensetech.org
for you copyright people
what do you think about this and i heard from the same website that the marines have a new thermobarics weapon

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 07:53
I haven't heard about the new one's they developed, but I know a lot about the old ones. Especially the FAE.

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 07:56
the new one is like the size of a football atleast the test one and it blew up a building i think it said it was the size of a small 1 bedroom house or appartment they are pretty powerful

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:03
I'm sure they are. It probably works on the same principle as a FAE in that it atomizes a substance and detonates it creating a bomb many more times in size than original form. Its not the explosion but the shock that does the damage.

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:04
Is that like a concussion grenade?

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 08:05
and if the shock doesnt kill you you will suffocate because it uses a crap load of oxygen in that immediate vicinity

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:06
Similar but not. The concussion grenade still relies on the explosion to do the damage. The thermobaric device relies on the force created by it. If you could withstand the force of a small thermobaric device (which no one could) the explosion itself would do surprisingly little damage.

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:08
and if the shock doesnt kill you you will suffocate because it uses a crap load of oxygen in that immediate vicinity
Not really. The damage is caused by the immediate use of all the O2 on the area... including that in your lungs, meaning your lungs would collapse, etc. possibly burn...

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:08
Are these out there? Are they in regular use in regular armies? does it not pose an even bigger threat to our troops?

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:10
Not really. The damage is caused by the immediate use of all the O2 on the area... including that in your lungs, meaning your lungs would collapse, etc. possibly burn...Isn't that what he said?

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:13
Are these out there? Are they in regular use in regular armies? does it not pose an even bigger threat to our troops?
Not really "out there" They're pretty expensive to make, and the cost is way up there.

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:13
Isn't that what he said?
I didn't think he said that, no.

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:14
and if the shock doesnt kill you you will suffocate because it uses a crap load of oxygen in that immediate vicinityI got the same thing out of this as from yours, A-Man.

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 08:15
can any of you explain the one back in WWII and how it was made and detonated?

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:15
Mine was far more descriptive though. More articulate. Besides! It doesn't suffocate you!

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:16
can any of you explain the one back in WWII and how it was made and detonated?
The coal dust bomb?

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:16
Mine was far more descriptive though. More articulate. Besides! It doesn't suffocate you!No O2 is no O2!

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 08:18
yes the coal dust one and cj thank you NO O2 IS NO O2 wich in turn means.....SUFFOCATION

CplCJ
April 21st, 2006, 08:21
yes the coal dust one and cj thank you NO O2 IS NO O2 wich in turn means.....SUFFOCATION

Shi wa hei to de aru.

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 08:23
Take a physiology class.. The coal dust bomb is exactly that. They found a way to stir up a considerable amount of coal dust, which is extremely volatile, even more so that propellant, and ignite it.

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 12:01
i totally did not understand what u said cj and here is the new thermobaric weapon for the marines i will see if i can pm uguys the picture that goes along with the article it is from the same website as the last one
Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon

War is hell. But it’s worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why they’re not talking about it, much.

This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE - "Novel Explosive"- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.

A post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: "One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed." Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as "an awesome piece of ordnance."

It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: "SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms."

The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:

"Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure."

The rational for this approach was straightforward:

"Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives...all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned."

The manufacturers, Talley, make bold use of its track record, with a brochure headlined Thermobaric Urban Destruction."

The SMAW-NE has only been procured by the USMC, though there are reports that some were 'borrowed' by other units. However, there are also proposals on the table that thousands of obsolete M-72 LAWs could be retrofitted with thermobaric warheads, making then into effective urban combat tools.

But in an era of precision bombs, where collateral damage is expected to be kept to a minimum, such massively brutal weapons have become highly controversial. These days, every civilian casualty means a few more “hearts and minds” are lost. Thermobaric weapons almost invariable lead to civilian deaths. The Soviet Union was heavily criticized for using thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan because they were held to constitute "disproportionate force," and similar criticisms were made when thermobarics were used in the Chechen conflict. According to Human Rights Watch, thermobaric weapons "kill and injure in a particularly brutal manner over a wide area. In urban settings it is very difficult to limit the effect of this weapon to combatants, and the nature of FAE explosions makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter from their destructive effect."

So it’s understandable that the Marines have made so little noise about the use of the SMAW-NE in Fallujah. But keeping quiet about controversial weapons is a lousy strategy, no matter how effective those arms are. In the short term, it may save some bad press. In the long term, it’s a recipe for a scandal. Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide "we do/do not to use X". Otherwise when the media find do find out – as they always do -- not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of “covering up.”

I'm undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up. Otherwise you get claims of “chemical weapons” and “violating the Geneva Protocol.” Which doesn't really help anyone. The warfighter is left in doubt, and it hands propaganda to the bad guys. Just look at what happened it last week’s screaming over white phosphorous rounds.

-- David Hambling

THERE'S MORE: Americans aren’t the only ones with these weapons. The Chinese, the Russians -- even guerilla groups -- now have thermobarics' shockingly destructive power in their grasps.

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 12:17
So they have to penetrate the wall first... I get it. They expand the gasses in a structure through super heating them and it DE-stuctures it... and down comes the roof... Sweeeeet

SSG_Bolles
April 21st, 2006, 12:34
here is the link they are all on one page i am running outta battery and it is about half way downhttp://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_ammo_and_munitions.htmli will be back on monday mabey sooner

MadMax
April 21st, 2006, 13:47
Sweeeeet. See ya.

SSG_Bolles
April 24th, 2006, 07:02
i know right that is some crazy stuff

SSG_Bolles
April 25th, 2006, 12:24
so the coal bomb... the dust was dispersed then exploded?

MadMax
April 25th, 2006, 12:39
Not exploded, IGNITED. The FAE concept is rapid burn of volatile material.

SSG_Bolles
April 25th, 2006, 12:42
ah got it

MadMax
April 25th, 2006, 12:56
Simple but reeeeeeally deadly

SSG_Bolles
April 28th, 2006, 08:09
dont trip that trigger early:eek:

MadMax
April 28th, 2006, 08:52
Actually, you would have to be miles away or it would mess you up. It would have to be detonated remotely.