BUUUSSSHHH!!

[MadMax]

In light of our new guests, I am bringing up a thread for people to comment on our current Commander-in-Chief. And NOOOOO cussing. Just a reminder.

[CplCJ]

I am definately eager to hear the Captain's view of him.

[innersanctum]

Mr. Bush, or as I affectionately refer to him as King George for his ability to bend the law to serve his needs, is not what I would call the best President of modern times (I still reserve that for the achievements that President Regan accomplished).

I think he oversteps his boundaries when it pleases him to do so to accomplish his agenda.

Gas prices have hit an all time when, can you believe it, an oil man gets in office.

I think his domestic policies are sorely lacking and his foreign policies are somewhat self serving.

His decision making process is confusing and barely comprehensible.

He needs to fire his speech writer who makes him look foolish more often than not.

He has managed the 9/11 disaster as best he could with what he had to work with and possibly better than what Gore could have done but not better than other Presidents would have including his father.

Questions of his ability to put the best man in a position of authority never showed it's ineptitude better than when Hurricane Katrina hit and FEMA was completely unprepared for it. If you think it was acceptable, think about the Marine Corps and their level a preparedness. Think about the embassies in Zimbabwe and whatever that other African country was in 1995ish. Or how about Somalia, how long did it take to have Marines on soil after that pilot was drug through the streets dead in 1992. It was the next day for those that are keeping track. FEMA did not take hold of the Katrina disaster for at least 3 days and people had no where to turn. I imagine that is why their director ended up resigning like he did.

King George has walked on the Constitution on a number of occasions in the name of terrorism and that includes you, whether you want to believe it or not.

King George has vacationed more than any other president in history, or will have exceeded that by the end of this year. I am sure they are working vacations but when gas prices are soaring, people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan and the country needs someone to turn to, they want to be to be comforted by our President being in the White House, not on a ranch in Texas clearing brush.

I know some will take exception to me referring to King George as such. But you know what's great about the US? We still have the Freedom of Speech guaranteed to us in the Consititution. You may not like my opinion and you don't even have to listen to it or read it but I am allowed to speak my mind and cause that dissent. Dissention breeds change and if you don't think that is a good thing, read your American history, specifically the American Revolution. It causes us to think about what's going on in the world we live in. Your opinion may not change but at least they will know how others, me in this case, feel about a situation and gain insight as to how decisions affect other people from different lifestyles.

In summary, I don't like King George. I don't like his policies or beliefs. I respect that the people of this country gave him his power to run our country and will continue to do so until 2008. When his time is up, I am sure that I will find that the next guy is just as bad or worse yet, that King George was a better President than I give him credit for now. On the other hand, the next President could expose King George for the fraud I believe him to be today by making this country a much better place to live.

[jarvisa]

Steve,
I cant remember are you a democrat or an issueist?

[innersanctum]

I am not really a democrat but I tend to lean that way more since our current Prez has taken office.

I guess I have never heard the term issueist before...If it means that I have issues, :D I guess I am that...:p

[ToFlyy]

im going to have to take steves side on this topic

[jarvisa]

Bush reminds me of my grandpa I have to love him.

[MadMax]

Well, I'm a Republican, and I'll be one until they at least hang HRC and that whole cadre. I support Bush, and always will. He has issues (like Steve apparently) and has made some questionable decisions, but can anyone tell me what the Democrats would have done to the government over the last six years? Be glad we're not surrounded by islamic idiots, because that's what would have happened if Gore was elected.

[MadMax]

It would take me three days to get to work, Bridget...

[MadMax]

40 minutes, half by highway going 80.

[innersanctum]

Well, I'm a Republican, and I'll be one until they at least hang HRC and that whole cadre. I support Bush, and always will. He has issues (like Steve apparently) and has made some questionable decisions, but can anyone tell me what the Democrats would have done to the government over the last six years? Be glad we're not surrounded by islamic idiots, because that's what would have happened if Gore was elected.

For the record, I didn't like WJC any better than I like GWB...but at least I could afford to drive home from NC to IL and FL and sometimes TX when I was in the USMC on a 96. No way that could happen today. I also didn't vote for AAG...It was the right decision in 2000 to vote for GWB but we made a mistake in 2004. Just living through it now is all.

[CplCJ]

It takes me 30 minutes by car. So it would take me a whole day by horse.

[innersanctum]

George Bush wouldn't ride a horse to work....err, umm, back to Bush and Croneyism.

[MadMax]

I always go Republican in the Presidential elections because the Demo's screw it up too bad. Yeah, we spend a ridiculous amount of money, but we've been known to do something good with it. Not like closing 2 out of three bases and ending the careers of good men and women.

[jarvisa]

I didnt mean it like that Steve, I just meant you vote bases on the issue at hand not by party.

[MadMax]

I only vote on issues at the state and local elections. We had our primary yesterday.

[CplCJ]

I am regiustered Republican, but usually go with whomever I feel is best for the job. I think Mr. McKenney plays by those rules, too.

[innersanctum]

I didnt mean it like that Steve, I just meant you vote bases on the issue at hand not by party.

I figured that is what you meant. It was a poor attempt at humor...

So to answer your question better, I am a lot like Bush. He makes decisions that are advantageous to him personally as do I. Republicans don't look too favorably on the middle class, semi-blue collar contract worker with a technical skill set supporting a family. The business I am in though is a highly Republican subsidized business (Agriculture) so I suppose I have to give a little thanks to them for that.

[V8403]

Buuussshhhhh sounds like a bad stale beer

[MadMax]

That's what I was trying to make it sound like. You remember, natural spring waters... as pure as our president.

[Green Man]

Personally, I don't like Bush much as a president, but I think the current problems in Washington go much deeper than just Pres. Bush, the Republicans, or whatever single thing you want to point to.
For one, I think that Republicans and Democrats have become SO polarized on certain issues that there is just no reaching common groung. Another point is that politicians have lost touch with (or never experienced) common middle and lower middle class people that are struggling to make it. We are outsourcing our jobs to India, Mexico or elsewhere, our automobile industry (which employs many, many people) is in serious decline, health care costs are outrageous, and gets harder and harder just to create yourself (and your family) a decent life.
We need change. And not just president. We need a complete overhaul. If we do not we will overextend ourselves, succumb to corruption, and go out like the Roman Empire did.

[MadMax]

Good to here from you again Green Man. I knew all I had to do was bait you with political dialog. HAHAHA. Either way, I agree with you whole heartedly. It makes me nervous about the thought of overhaul though. It almost sounds revolutionary or even socialistic.

[innersanctum]

Personally, I don't like Bush much as a president, but I think the current problems in Washington go much deeper than just Pres. Bush, the Republicans, or whatever single thing you want to point to.
For one, I think that Republicans and Democrats have become SO polarized on certain issues that there is just no reaching common groung. Another point is that politicians have lost touch with (or never experienced) common middle and lower middle class people that are struggling to make it. We are outsourcing our jobs to India, Mexico or elsewhere, our automobile industry (which employs many, many people) is in serious decline, health care costs are outrageous, and gets harder and harder just to create yourself (and your family) a decent life.
We need change. And not just president. We need a complete overhaul. If we do not we will overextend ourselves, succumb to corruption, and go out like the Roman Empire did.

I like the Roman Empire comparison. Clicks for me.

[MadMax]

It might be a little too soon to agree with that one, but with the way things are escalating, I wouldn't want to have to make that call in a year.

[RickLem]

Many different issues have been mentioned here, some to the point and others mostly fantasy.

I worked for John McCain in 2000 and remember what happened in South Carolina during the primary. So GWB is not my favorite Republican. I support him in Iraq and Afghanistan but I also believe that we should get everyone out of Iraq within a year. Not to mean that we should leave the job undone but they should be able to defend themselves by then.

The true liberal will try and blame Bush for gas prices but you can't have it both ways. The left accused him of going into Iraq to steal their oil and now they're unhappy that we're not getting enough oil out of the middle east. Democrats block every attempt to increase domestic energy production and offer no plan to fix the problem except to come up with alternative "green" energy. Well, that's great for the long term but what about the next few years. I agree, we must be energy independent, at least from the middle east.

Finally, as a Vietnam Vet, I could never support Kerry even if he was a conservative or I was a leftist. But that's another story.

Rick

[Green Man]

Well, revolution is more of a last resort type of thing... but this country was founded by revolutionists. I'm talking more about the wiping out of Polital Action Groups, complete campaign reform, that type of stuff. Large Companies corruption and greed run this country, and we need to change that. But try to get a politician to give up their "war chest" of campaign contributions (By the way they get to keep all that dough when they retire or if they get out of politics).
So, yes.... to get the reforms that we need in this country it might just require a revolution at some point.

[jarvisa]

Rick,
I agree with everything you just said. You cant have your cake and eat it too. I agree we need to leave Iraq when everything is ready to be left and ensure that the sacrafices of our men and women were not in vain.

[MadMax]

It would have to be exactly that... revolutionary. Because no one is kicking out anyone in Washington. Maybe we should start with limiting the amount of time one can stay in office. Kennedy's been in there since Moses was a private.
One thing that I can say about the way this conversation is heading, is that you really can't afford to be a hardline liberal or conservative anymore.

[innersanctum]

Maybe we need to form the WWP (Wishy Washy Party) so everyone can be happy not feel compelled to take such a hard lined stance on political issues. The mascot could be a chameleon and it will change colors daily to ensure everyone's agenda is met.

WWP UNITED!

[jarvisa]

I want to be a member. I am a woman I can never make my mind up.

[Green Man]

Rick is right in a way, Democrats don't want to open up the ANWR for oil drilling. But that is just a quick fix. It would only produce a small percentage of oil that we consume for a short number of years. ANWR would just be a band-aid for an open gut wound. We would still have to import oil from the OPEC (be it Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.)
The real issue here is dependence on oil. For the past 100 years our country has built its transportation and infrastructure around oil. Now it is catching up with us. Our refineries are aging and in disrepair, oil reserves around the world are being depleted and it gets more and more expensive to drill deeper to reach that oil, and because of our addictions to the automobile, we use 25% of the world's oil.

And we in Iraq for oil. No other reason. Cover it up with Saddam Hussein's atrocities, WMDs, or whatever else you want to, but oil is exactly the reason we are in Iraq. Bush knows that we are dependent on oil, so when he saw a chance to go to Iraq and secure a huge oil source with a government that we helped put in place, he took it. According to an article I once read in Money magazine, Iraq (with the proper infrastucture and equipment put into place) could rival Saudi Arabia as the world's leading oil exporter. Bush may be dumb, but he's not stupid.

[RickLem]

And we in Iraq for oil. No other reason. Cover it up with Saddam Hussein's atrocities, WMDs, or whatever else you want to, but oil is exactly the reason we are in Iraq. Bush knows that we are dependent on oil, so when he saw a chance to go to Iraq and secure a huge oil source with a government that we helped put in place, he took it. According to an article I once read in Money magazine, Iraq (with the proper infrastucture and equipment put into place) could rival Saudi Arabia as the world's leading oil exporter. Bush may be dumb, but he's not stupid.

You should ask any Iraq War Vet if he/she thinks that oil is the ONLY reason we went there.

Rick

[CplCJ]

You should ask any Iraq War Vet if he/she thinks that oil is the ONLY reason we went there.

RickI was thinking that, too Rick.

[jarvisa]

You could have asked my nephew but he is no longer with us but I know what he answer would have been because he volunteered to go and not for oil.

[Green Man]

OK, let me correct that statement. Oil is the MAIN reason we are there

[CplCJ]

OK, let me correct that statement. Oil is the MAIN reason we are thereWhen you think of how many schools, and hospitals and womens programs that are there now, I daresay oil didn't build that hospital.

[innersanctum]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why are in Iraq at this very minute? Is it for justice of the deaths from 9/11, justice for the deaths of the military personnel that have died there since, is it for the oil, or how about the Iraqi people?

Is it the consensus of this board that the US really cares more about the people of Iraq more than well being of their very own people that fight to protect our country? I mean let's call a spade a spade...if Iraq didn't have those huge oil reserves, would we really care what Saddam did while he was in power. If we are concerned about the welfare of the people of Iraq, why is it limited to just them and not say the people of Sudan that are about to have the biggest cases of genocide since Bosnia....why don't we care about those masses of people that are about to die?

It's because they don't have the oil in their country that the Iraqi's do and there is little that we can benefit from by assisting them. Sure, we may get the UN to draft a resolution abhoring the actions of that government but I bet we send little to no troops to prevent this from happening.

Remember the evolution of us being Iraq from the start. WTC gets hit. We send troops to Afghanistan to track down bin Laden. In the process of hunting for bin Laden, it's decided that all of a sudden we need to go to Iraq for WMD's? bin Laden was never spotted or in Iraq. We kill Saddams sons and rightly so. We capture Saddam and put him on trial as he needs to be tried. But because of 9/11? Was Saddam somehow tied to 9/11 and I missed it? I thought bin Laden claimed responsibility. Or are we in Iraq because Saddam embarrassed GW's old man?

My contention is that no one knows a hard lined reason why we are in Iraq right now but we are there and can't get out. I respect the people that are there and understand it's their jobs to take orders from the Commander-in-Chief. I will still question his ability as a leader over the past 6 years and when he leaves office, long after.

So to those that are there or have been there and are reading this message, why are we in Iraq?

[innersanctum]

When you think of how many schools, and hospitals and womens programs that are there now, I daresay oil didn't build that hospital.

But why Iraq to do these things instead of any other country in the world?

[RickLem]

OK, let me correct that statement. Oil is the MAIN reason we are there

John Kerry, in 1971, asked the question about Vietnam: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Most of us that served there know that Vietnam was not a mistake, at least until people like Kerry, Fonda and others made it impossible to win. If we imbolden our enemy in Iraq, as we did in Vietnam, with lies like OIL being the only or even main reason for us being there, then we are in danger of losing.

In my opinion, the left hates Bush so much that they will allow losing this war just to try and prove that Bush was a mistake for this country and Kerry or Gore should have been president.

Rick

[MadMax]

Ah yes, that sounds like a new perspective. And a very good observation. I think over the last two years I have allowed myself to get more and more cynical. I really have to turn that around.

[Green Man]

If we imbolden our enemy in Iraq, as we did in Vietnam, with lies like OIL being the only or even main reason for us being there, then we are in danger of losing.



Rick
Firstly, saying that Islamic fundamentalists need any help to be emboldened is just foolishness. This is holy war, and our country represents everything evil to them. They are not going to get more emboldened than to strap a bomb to themselves just for the chance to do some damage to us.
Secondly, to simply deny that oil was a HUGE reason why we went to Iraq in the first place seems like ignorance to me. Taking out Hussein's kids is great, sending Saddam to trial is also a very good thing, but is all of the cost (in human and economic terms) worth it? Steve was right, in any other country without oil the answer is obvious: NO. Africa has had genocide going on for quite a while, but do we do anything substantial there (at least lately?): NO. Nobody gives two turds about Africa because there isn't oil.
Lastly, in the long run, this doesn't look to be a winnable war. For arguments sake let's say that by the end of the year we have trained enough Iraquis to keep the peace over there and we go ahead and pull out. All it takes is a few car bombs or maybe an Iranian wanting to stir things up by blowing up a Kurdish compound - then all hell will break loose once again. The middle east is good for two things. Sand and oil.

[RickLem]

Firstly, saying that Islamic fundamentalists need any help to be emboldened is just foolishness. This is holy war, and our country represents everything evil to them. They are not going to get more emboldened than to strap a bomb to themselves just for the chance to do some damage to us.
Secondly, to simply deny that oil was a HUGE reason why we went to Iraq in the first place seems like ignorance to me. Taking out Hussein's kids is great, sending Saddam to trial is also a very good thing, but is all of the cost (in human and economic terms) worth it? Steve was right, in any other country without oil the answer is obvious: NO. Africa has had genocide going on for quite a while, but do we do anything substantial there (at least lately?): NO. Nobody gives two turds about Africa because there isn't oil.
Lastly, in the long run, this doesn't look to be a winnable war. For arguments sake let's say that by the end of the year we have trained enough Iraquis to keep the peace over there and we go ahead and pull out. All it takes is a few car bombs or maybe an Iranian wanting to stir things up by blowing up a Kurdish compound - then all hell will break loose once again. The middle east is good for two things. Sand and oil.

What's foolish is to think that Bin Lauden and his crowd doesn't understand how easy public opinion can change in this country and that, being a republic, politicians will turn and run if they think they won't get elected next time around. In his rants, has talked about our history in Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, etc.. They count on the left in this country to comdem any effort to defend ourselves against aggression.

Are we after oil in Afganistian, were we in Mogadisu or Beirut? I don't remember any oil in Vietnam or Korea. Let me see, Somalia is in Africa, right?

[innersanctum]

I was in Somalia and I know why we were there. We were there directly after they took a pilot of ours, one of 3 I believe, and drug him through the streets after they killed him. That event happened on December 8, 1992. Marines were on the ground the next day and I made my way from the Stumps to Mogadishu on the 17th that same month. Our mission initially was to deliver food and disarm the local warlords. We cared but only after they humiliated one of our own. We weren't there nearly as long as we have been in Iraq though and after the Army F'd it up in 94, we got out of there pretty damn quick.

I am not trying to being a smart ass on this as more for my own informaiton because I was not there and what little I was, I could have never understood why...what was our reasoning for being in Vietnam? My understanding was that we were to thwart communism from the North. Is that correct? Different times in the 60's and 70's than today. Also, I was only 10 years old when the suicide bombing was executed in Beirut so I would be interested in finding out why we were there as, quite frankly, I had never asked before.

We all understand why we are in Afghanistan because we are supposed to be hunting bin Laden there.

But again, I ask, what are we supposed to be doing in Iraq?

I do respect your opinion Rick. It makes us all see every side of things when we are discussing topics of interest. My opinion differs from yours which differs from Green Man which differs from the next person and the next. If everyone felt the same about about everything and everyone we would be living out the tale of "1984." It's healthy that people dissent from popular or unpopular opinion. It's the American way.

[CplCJ]

It is good to hear other points of view as well. The debaters that are now present and accounted for are mature enough to state thier feelings, AND respect those of the disagreeing counterparts. I am liking how this is going. Where's V8?

[CplCJ]

This excerpt is from a Sunni Muslim on the US showing the new video in Iraq:

Sattar al-Dulaimi, a Sunni, questioned the significance of the original video or its outtakes. He also said, "The reason the Americans haven't captured or killed al-Zarqawi is that they need an al-Qaida connection to justify their occupation of Iraq."

Do you think this is a valid statement. I know some of you might...

[MadMax]

I can see why he would say that, but I also think that is outdated. Our justification has changed... evolved, since then. We are there to train and enable their government to stand on their own two feet. I don't think that anyone gives a damn about an al qaida connection just that we hurry up and get out of there.

[CplCJ]

You notice the guy is a Sunni. That say a lot right there.

[MadMax]

It tells me he's an idiot like the rest of them.

[MadMax]

BRASS... Breathe, relax, aim, stop, squeeze...