What is the difference between Kosovo and S. Ossetia

[lee_lu25]

Hi guys,

wanted to start a new discussion and learn some opinion from you...
What do you think about that?

[V8403]

From the question that you ask I can think of only one answer, In Kosovo the Albanian ethnic majority is Muslim. Their governing organization was declared a terrorist organization by our State Department. The US signed a treaty that promised Serbiathat Kosovo wouldn’t be taken from them without their permission. But, the U.S. supports an independent Kosovo with - what …70% unemployment, 90% youth, Muslims being radicalized and continuing the ethnic cleansing against Serbs and destroying Christian churches.

In South Ossetia the ethnic majority Ossetians and Russians want to be independent of Georgia. They are Christians. The Russians are defending the forceful inclusion by the Georgian Army. I suppose - the U.S. is against an independent South Ossetia.

[lee_lu25]

Thanks a lot for the reply! It's really interesting to know an opinion from all corners of the world and not only from Germany where I live right now.
But I have one more question:
if the ethic majority in S. Ossetia are Ossetians and Russians and if they want to be independent from Georgia already for years, then why U.S. should be against it? I thought that U.S. supports the idea of free, independent State and democracy. I love the motto of New Hampshire "Live free or die":)
So Baltic States, Ukraine all other republics of the former SU got that Independence.
If Kosovo got an Independence as well (even though there are more Muslims etc and more population than in S. Ossetia) than why cannot be S.Ossetia also independent? I think that choice/chance to be independent should have everyone. If there are rules they should be for all. Or do I see here something wrong?

[poghmahone]

From the question that you ask I can think of only one answer, In Kosovo the Albanian ethnic majority is Muslim. Their governing organization was declared a terrorist organization by our State Department. The US signed a treaty that promised Serbiathat Kosovo wouldn’t be taken from them without their permission. But, the U.S. supports an independent Kosovo with - what …70% unemployment, 90% youth, Muslims being radicalized and continuing the ethnic cleansing against Serbs and destroying Christian churches.

In South Ossetia the ethnic majority Ossetians and Russians want to be independent of Georgia. They are Christians. The Russians are defending the forceful inclusion by the Georgian Army. I suppose - the U.S. is against an independent South Ossetia.
I think the differences go far beyond ethnocentricities and religious "preferences," and by preferences, I mean the freedom of choice of religion... something that does not appear to be present in the former eastern bloc nations. When a heavy US military presence became the pivot point for NATO intervention, we were not in a war where our armed forces were as stretched as they presently are. Putin knows this and pushed to annex the whole of Georgia sending a message to other eastern bloc countries that it will not tolerate "western" influences in its former "republics."

Had Bush chosen Afghanistan over Iraq (legitimate versus folly), our forces would still have a heightened state of readiness and be deployable to other hot spots in the world. Alas, our hands are tied and in spite of pledges and promises to Georgia that we would support them militarily, our present situation contradicts us from aiding the "democratically-elected pro-Western governmment." Knowing this, Putin made his move.

In Kosovo, US-led NATO sent troops in to stop the ethnic cleansing (a 21st Century term for genocide) going on between ethnic Albanians and Serbians... two groups who were as close as the Orangemen and IRA in Northern Ireland. Again, it turns into a religious dispute, with violent overtones, as one religion believes it it superior to the other and thus, this gives them the "devine right" to obliterate the other side. Bullshit!

Kosovo and Bosnia are a wee bit farther from Russian border states and hence, the Russians have less clout. The 1991 Persian Gulf War showed that the Russian top-of-the-line frontline tank -- the T-72 -- had major design flaws and to increase speed, cut down the armor protection. In the Gulf War, it was always possible to spot a T-72, because its turret was usually blown 50 feet away from the remains of the battle tank.

Western technology was simply better than anything the Russians could produce. After NATO basically won a hollow war in Bosnia, it had by then depeleted a great number of crusie missles, not to mention the wear and tear on the B-52 fleet. When NATO and the US pull out of Bosnia, I'm afraid ethnic cleansing will return.

Georgia, on the other hand, is smack dab against Russia. The Russian Bear is furious that Poland hastened their agreement for the installation of Patriot missle batteries in their country, a preemptive move to cause the Russians concern about rolling over the border of an ill-prepared nation. Unlike WWII, Russia may find quite a bit of trouble trying to roll into Poland. It's not Georgia, that's for sure.

If South Ossetia did not want to be a part of Georgia, it should have tried to succede from the newly formed government. Once the Russian government started giving passports to these citizens, the Georgian
government should have put a stop to it. By all means, it looks like Russia is preparing to annex Georgia in its entirety and act as a fait accompli by the time Europeans get off their fat asses and decide to enforce their treat with Georgia, ... but by then, it would be too little too late.

One must remember a little known fact in history. While the Germans overran Poland in September of 1939, it was a Polish fighter pilot who brought down two German planes -- the first lost in WWII. I think the Russians will lose a lot more this time. The US needs to disengage from Iraq, focus on Afghanistan and prepare the remainder of our armed forces to respond to any crisis anywhere in the world.

SF,

Pogh :rolleyes:

[lee_lu25]

think the differences go far beyond ethnocentricities and religious "preferences," and by preferences, I mean the freedom of choice of religion... something that does not appear to be present in the former eastern bloc nations. When a heavy US military presence became the pivot point for NATO intervention, we were not in a war where our armed forces were as stretched as they presently are. Putin knows this and pushed to annex the whole of Georgia sending a message to other eastern bloc countries that it will not tolerate "western" influences in its former "republics."

Doc, just to be clear, that wasn't surprise for Russia with G and it was prepared for that, but I lost my relative in that conflict and she was shot by a G soldier when G attacked, thinking that it can rely on the whole western part of the world.
Shell I tell you stories from S. Ossetia about genocide? Oh, yes, maybe there were less victims than in Kosovo therefore it's not a genocide...??? Where is that point when we can decide t was a genocide?


... When NATO and the US pull out of Bosnia, I'm afraid ethnic cleansing will return.

Well, I'm afraid that it will also return to S. Ossetia if Russians pull out...But they won't.


Russia may find quite a bit of trouble trying to roll into Poland. It's not Georgia, that's for sure.

You are right, but Poland is also not everything. There is still a little spot Belarus. And those Patriot missiles brings also missiles to border from Belorussian side. Like I said, Russia and Belarus might fight over some economical issues but ones it comes to such things... well I feel threaten for my Mom who is living right on a border with Poland. Who knows maybe there will be a big ups and someone would shoot a missile and it will land on her house... I just don't know what Russia, America - don't care who else - would achieve with all this threatening each other???!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If South Ossetia did not want to be a part of Georgia, it should have tried to succede from the newly formed government.
Oh, tell me - would have Kosovo ever succeeded without NATO and US forces and without that conflict which caught attention of the world to be recognized as independent state???
Do you know what: Ukraine, Baltic states, they forget that they got that independence after the collapse of the SU and there were no ethnic cleansing, there were no different religious (like in Kosovo), they wanted to be independent and they became independent. If the SU was too weak to keep them or not - that's another issue, but mostly nobody wanted conflicts so they are now INDEPENDENT. Did anyone help SU to keep them? HA! No! Do you know why? The western part of the world particularly US as a former Cold War enemy wanted to have Russia weak... Even if SU lost the Cold War, I'm glad it was over. And I'm tortured now with worries about the next one.
But now the same states who got that independence and enjoy it don't want to give it others like to S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. The last one has even a different language from Georgian! So what the heck is that???


Once the Russian government started giving passports to these citizens, the Georgian government should have put a stop to it.By all means, it looks like Russia is preparing to annex Georgia in its entirety and act as a fait accompli by the time Europeans get off their fat asses and decide to enforce their treat with Georgia, ... but by then, it would be too little too late.
I can imagine they don't like it. I wouldn't either. And yes, Russia tries to maintain it presence especially there where it feels US comes closer. But the ones who didn't want to have a Russian passport, they didn't take it. My aunt who was killed by a G soldier didn't take a Russian passport (isn't it a paradox??), but she was for independence. Russian didn't make people take the passports with a threat of death. But people felt threaten more by Saakashvili, they didn't want to send their guys to Iraq once they get a part of Georgia and that made them turn more to Russia!

I
One must remember a little known fact in history. While the Germans overran Poland in September of 1939, it was a Polish fighter pilot who brought down two German planes -- the first lost in WWII. I think the Russians will lose a lot more this time. The US needs to disengage from Iraq, focus on Afghanistan and prepare the remainder of our armed forces to respond to any crisis anywhere in the world.

Well, that's interesting. I didn't know this! I learned something new today again! I love this portal!
But it feels like you want to praise all: Polish people, Georgian, Ukrainians - the only bad guys are Russians: military technic is a crap, don't have any idea about democracy, etc... Doc, it feels so! Do you know what, those would support you in anything and share your opinion regardless anything. But those like Germany - they would still be able to criticise you and I have more respect for those who can stand up and say what they don't like and not kissing someones... than for those are like satellites now for the US, tomorrow for someone else and will jump and change "Godfathers" as soon as they see they would have more protection with a different one.
Well, I think Russia has to remember what you said about loosing their fighter planes, but US has to remember NOW that it's not mono polar world any more. It's another world order - a new one and again. US broke some rules too with occupying a country, overthrowing the government, threatening a neighbour... -Iraq (just read the quotes from innersantum - I think it's the name of the guy) So, Russia said why not, if they can, we can do othis too. And once it started doing the same, it messed up all the cards in the poker game for US...
Well, bottomline is - there are states who would like to be more pro-Russian, and there are states who want to be more pro-western, pro-American like Georgia, Ukraine, Poland. And it's their own right and should be respected. And if there are rules like "independence for anyone who wants" then give them that independence. And who knows, maybe when they will be tired of that independence and see that they can't survive with that alone, then they will find a way to you on their own and it will be better than to fight for that piece of land. I'm addressing it not only to Americans or Russians,but also S. Ossetia and Abkhazia.
DOn't be mad for some sayings, I'm also emotional person:)

[gunga55]

This is the nice thing about having people outside of the US so that we can get a different view on a personal level

[lee_lu25]

This is the nice thing about having people outside of the US so that we can get a different view on a personal level

You are right:), but I wished the reason for all different opinions would be something different than a war... it hurts...:(

[V8403]

You are right:), but I wished the reason for all different opinions would be something different than a war... it hurts...:(

There is a big difference between the Caucasian province and Kosovo: KLA never initiated any aggression toward Serbia proper.
The situation between Kosovo and South Ossetia in 1999 would have been similar only if Albania had intervened militarily with the pretext of helping the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.

This did not happen also because the West just like today with Moscow took the position that Tirana could not be an impartial peacekeeping force in the region. Of course, you cannot compare Albania ’s military strength with Russia ’s, but in principle that is the only possible comparison, which makes sense.

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South Ossetia with its modest size and a population of only 70,000 is, among other things, too small to be compared with Kosovo. You could however compare it with cases like Alto Adige situated between Italy and Germany and even with the northern tip of Kosovo if you wish.

[lee_lu25]

Thank you. That does make me see the things also from different side. But I think I need some time to digest it:) Anyway I still see some common pattern between Kosovo and S / N Ossetia and Abkhazia. I don't think the point is about the size and strength of a country... What would America do in such situation? Just looking how it's citizens are killed? Something tells me that US would have acted the same way with the only exception not going so far into Georgia. That was I think really not needed from Russians side: protect S. Ossetia - yes, to go so much deeper in G and stay there longer after ceasefire was signed, that's the same miscalculation like that from Georgia to attack S. Ossetia.... But I'm not a General, I cannot say with 100% sure that there wasn't really a military need to stay in G longer, in some news I read and heard there were still attempts from G side to shoot etc... so it's difficult to say what would have been the most correct way to do.
But thank you again. It does help to hear different opinions and to keep eyes and ears wide open...


There is a big difference between the Caucasian province and Kosovo: KLA never initiated any aggression toward Serbia proper.
The situation between Kosovo and South Ossetia in 1999 would have been similar only if Albania had intervened militarily with the pretext of helping the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.

This did not happen also because the West just like today with Moscow took the position that Tirana could not be an impartial peacekeeping force in the region. Of course, you cannot compare Albania ’s military strength with Russia ’s, but in principle that is the only possible comparison, which makes sense.

************************************************** *****
South Ossetia with its modest size and a population of only 70,000 is, among other things, too small to be compared with Kosovo. You could however compare it with cases like Alto Adige situated between Italy and Germany and even with the northern tip of Kosovo if you wish.

[gunga55]

Well there is the case of Texas independence from Mexico. We didn't send in troops so to speak but it isn't like we didn't support Texas.